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2038 play design discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:19 am
by Mitch-Oilers
I hope to have a good discussion on a topic I've been thinking about for several weeks. We've been debating concerns about 2 DL plays, QB ratings, restrictions on early play calls, etc, etc etc. We agree that creating an experience that resembles the NFL is a key objective of the league. As I thought more about these debates and my own observations, I think we missed what potentially is the real issue.
I believe something that has been overlooked in the debates about 2 DL plays, etc. is simply: push/run rushers
I'm seeing more plays being used on 1st and 2nd down with 9, 10 and even 11 players that end up in some sort of coverage. Some of these plays are 2 DL plays, but there are other plays with 3+ DL. I believe considering a minimum number of pass/run rushers for plays gets to the heart of our objective, resembling the NFL.
How many plays on 1st and 2nd down during normal situations in a NFL game do teams drop 9+ players into coverage? I haven't done the research but my game observations tell me it's a very low number. Yes, teams use 2 DL on early downs when their opponent uses multiple WR sets, I get it. Yes, we can use 2 DL to help mimic "tweener" DE/LBs in the PNFL. I'll give you these points. However, with this said, that's why I believe the real debate needs to be on whether we should have a minimum number of pass/run rushers for each play type to better resemble the NFL.
What are your thoughts?
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:49 pm
by Steve-LA Chargers
Maybe something like this?
Pass Long:
- At least 3 defenders must have Run Rush, Blitz, Pass Rush, or read logic within 5 yards of the LOS
Pass Medium:
- At least 4 defenders must have Run Rush, Blitz, Pass Rush, or read logic within 5 yards of the LOS
Run Left / Run Middle / Run Right:
- At least 5 defenders must have Run Rush, Blitz, Pass Rush, or read logic within 5 yards of the LOS
Charlie would need to review a lot of the existing plays to see if any should be moved to a different category (or simply deleted if they don't meet the requirement). Would be easy to apply to new plays though.
This requirement would still allow the creation of 2 DL plays for pass medium but would require the coach to have 2 other players blitz, run rush or read (within 5 yards of the LOS), leaving only 7 players for zones and M2M.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:51 pm
by Charlie-49ers
Some distinct possibilities to consider/discuss
Well, this is clearly a multi-faceted issue and needs to be addressed from several perspectives.
Pass Short Defenses: 2-DL defenses in this category, whether one or both drop into pass coverage is unrealistic in the NFL, and should also be eliminated in the PNFL! In the NFL, any QB that sees a 2-DL defense in a short-yardage situation will call or an audible and run the ball; not an option in the PNFL. As such, these are pretty sure to be deleted in the upcoming season. Not really open for discussion.
Pass Medium Defenses: 2-DL defenses in this category are again problematic. In the new season, I am also looking to eliminate 2-DL from the Pass Medium category. Again, in the NFL, 2-DL defenses are “limited” to special situations and not routine defensive calls. In addition, Pass Medium defenses will require a minimum of 3 DLs. Also, Pass Medium defenses must have a minimum of four players (DLs, LBs, and DBs) defending the line, such as pass/run rushing. In other words, no more than seven players can be in pass coverage.
Pass Long: 2-DL defenses will continue to be allowed in this category. However, Pass Long defenses must have a minimum of 2 DLs (one or both can drop into pass coverage) however, at least three players must be defending the line such as pass/run rushing, which can be any combination of DLs, LBs, and DBs. In other words, no more than eight players can be in pass coverage. Additionally, Pass Long cannot be called on first or second down unless it is a greater than 10-yards situation. This additional provision will not apply during the last five minutes of play in each half.
Pass Razzle Dazzle: 2-DL defenses will continue to be allowed in this category. However, Razzle Dazzle defenses must have a minimum of 2 DLs and at least two players defending the line such as pass/run rushing, which can be any combination of DLs, LBs, and DBs. In other words, no more than nine players can be in pass coverage. Additionally, Razzle Dazzle cannot be called on first or second down unless it is a greater than 10-yards situation. This additional provision will not apply during the last five minutes of play in each half.
All other plays: No play in any other category, pass or run, may have more than seven players pass defending. This allows all kinds of combinations involving DLs dropping into pass coverage, as long as at least four players are defending the line in some manner.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:21 pm
by Mitch-Oilers
@Charlie - I like the additional distinction between the play categories.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:22 pm
by Dean-Atlanta
The changes Charlie outlined might be drastic but I think they are generally reasonable in limiting the use of unrealistic 2-DL defensive plays. Thia could require the amending or deleting of many of the defensive plays currently in use. Maybe this will send us all back into the play editor to create some new plays needed to effectively play defense under these new rules.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:12 am
by Charlie-49ers
The idea is to try not to be over-effective with unrealistic defenses that do not resemble what is done in the NFL. Sure, you can get a cloud of dust and 4-5 yards by running against the 2 DL defenses, but when was the last time you saw a team line up in a 2-DL defense on a 1st and 10 early in the 1st quarter? How about a 2-DL defense against a 2nd and two? It does not happen, and we should limit it in the PNFL to the proper time, place, and situation.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:31 pm
by Jerry-Redskins
I like Mitch's principle, but we cannot go too far. PM will have shorter zones than PL, or PRD. They are a PASS defense primarily and should not be forced to be "run oriented" I should be able to choose or design a PM defense to primarily stop the pass at 8 to 12 yards or so. I need to be able to match the offensive choices and match PM play design for pass happy teams. No reason PM cannot have only 3 pass (hold the line) rushers and 8 pass (Read, Zone, Man) defenders. The depth of the read and zones needed to defend the PM offensive plays at the 1st down markers matters. I like the change tp PRD as to matching to when PRD passes can be called. No issues with the other definitions.
Now we need to discuss adding minimum play amounts in the plans. I think any play calls with a minimum of 2 should go to 4 unique plays. Seeing way more goal line plays being called than in just goal line and 1 yard to go situations.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:22 pm
by Charlie-49ers
Again, I am trying to be realistic. In the NFL the traditional pass defense is the Nickel and Dime defenses for the medium passes. I am saying that you can use seven, or the NFL Quarter defense. How are seven defenders not giving you the flexibility that you need to pick or make effective defenses?
BTW, I agree with the goal Line stuff when it is not Goal Line.
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:51 pm
by Barney - Vikings
Charlie-
Trying to emulate the NFL perfectly is admirable. However the mechanics of our game don’t allow what is possible in the NFL.
Specifically I’m talking about the way the AI handles zone defenses. I would love to be able to run a “cover two” but I can’t because the game AI doesn’t switch off coverages like in a normal NFL zone defense.
Some of our most effective offensive plays take advantage of that fact and force you to play man to man defense. Then you would have only two potential zone defenders which in my view is not enough.
I think we absolutely have to allow eight dropping into pass coverage to play reasonable defense.
Barney
Re: 2038 play design discussion
Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:55 pm
by Jerry-Redskins
Realistic is the NFL does only rush three on all downs with the other 8 are in various coverages (Read, zone, man), The base and nickel defenses used on 1st down only rush 3 a decent amount of the time for some of the 3-4 teams. For the same reason I'm saying. To defend the pass. Defense and offense are a numbers game. Who has more where.
Some reading on formations
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... shers-2019https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... lysis-2019