Discussion: SP, AC, AG, ST, HA, EN Rookie Ratings Locked on Day 1 | IN and DI become the focus of TC

[Steve-Buffalo Bills]

Not a proposal, but a discussion purely for fun during the upcoming season. A rather radical idea was mentioned by Justin on another thread that merits discussion.

If we really wanted to be like the NFL, training camp would really only move the needle for IN and DI…

Intriguing idea. Love that the player simply becomes more experienced through training camp. To make it work, there would be no room for growth in rookie actuals and potentials for SP, AC, AG, ST, HA, and EN. IN and DI would be closer to league minimums for IN & DI with potentials closer to league maximums.

Example:
CB
82 83 85 59 95 86 55 60
82 83 85 59 95 86 91 88

Post draft boosts would only be made to SP, AC, AG, ST, HA, or EN.

What do you guys think about this concept? Basically, the players you draft will always have the same SP, AC, AG, ST, HA, and EN ratings throughout their careers. The only changes would be to IN and DI.

I'm aware that Charlie has a gradual spread approach he is applying to future draft classes, but this concept does work with that. The key difference is your 1st rounders would be players we currently see with high IN & DI actuals, 2nd and 3rd rounders would be players we currently see with slightly lower IN and DI actuals, and 4th - 7th round players will basically have lower actuals in all ratings (4th being better than 5th, etc. but they are locked in as back up talent who simply get more IN & DI over time).

Thoughts?

[Jerry-Redskins]

I think there can be smaller ACT to POT difference in some attributes at certain positions for draftees, but it is false to say only IN and DI improve. Very few college athletes are at their peak capability coming into pro football in any attribute. Yes, maybe only a tenth here or there in SP sometimes, but 99% are not maxed out. I do not think Justin meant match except for IN and DI. Just not as big a spread and start with lower POT.

I think the actual argument is the POT should just be lower, but it is the same in the long run if a players ACT is way lower than POT's. They do not reach the POT ceiling. Ultimately, it is the ACT they can reach that matters. It can be argued that the majority of players should be able to get into a teams regular rotation or starting position after several seasons, but even then they are not necessarily maxed out.

[Justin-Chicago]

Very few college athletes are at their peak capability coming into pro football in any attribute.

I disagree, I do believe that players at skill positions are usually maxed at SP. Keep in mind by the time they leave college they've been consistently training that attribute for 6+ years already. Maybe they have a little more room to gain AG, HA, or ST.

Players at positions where ST matters are usually maxed, or very close to maxed, at ST.

Jerry is right though, that some gains are possible, sometimes. Potential gains are somewhat position dependent, though, probably lowest for the key ratings at any position, and probably no more than a few points anywhere, with the exception of IN and DI.

[James-Eagles]

I think we are looking at this too literal. We only have 8 attributes to think they only represent that very real life attribute. One thing that has always been true is the project FBPro player put on attributes. The reality is they are numbers use to calculate outcomes. When you simulating something in real that involves countless real life variables and only have 8 there is going to be cross over.

[Donovon-Steelers]

(1) I agree with Jerry in that "Very few college athletes are at their peak capability coming into pro football in any attribute." I've listened to many interviews where rookies didn't realize how much stronger, faster and skilled their pro peers are. The difference isn't because of age but moreso better weight training coaches/facilities, more effective drills, higher competition, better nutritional programs, etc. Save for a few places like OSU, Bama, LSU, Georgia, most colleges can't rival the physical training improvements given to rookies once they reach the pros.

(2) For most PNFL rookies, they're usually maxed out by season 5 in the most important ratings, so the rest of their career TCs are already primarily IN/DI-centric.

(3) This change would take a lot of fun out of scouting new rookie actuals vs potentials, draft prep work, ITC decisions, etc. What's the point of watering down and simplifying things?

[Donovon-Steelers]

And one more huge difference is that college guys are used to 12 games + playoffs vs the NFL's 17 games + bye + playoffs. Plus half of college games for top teams are vs. cupcake opponents, whereas the NFL its a tough battle weekly. So that's an extra 1.5 mos of football @ much higher competition - those are realistic reasons that END ratings for rookies are usually lower and need increased.

[Steve-Buffalo Bills]

I see Jerry and Donovan's point for leaving what we have alone for SP, AC, AG, ST, HA, EN due to realism, but maybe we strongly consider having rookies begin with minimum IN & DI for all positions EXCEPT QB, K and P.

What if the IN & DI ACTS for all positions (EXCEPT QB, K and P) can only be boosted through TC and play time (see Justin's email)? This has powerful implications in that players won't always execute properly, penalties would increase, and fakes would actually work against the defense again (bringing back the value of using them in play design).

[James-Eagles]

I think we are making a lot of assumption about what these changes will do. I also think we are making a lot of assumptions about Rookies in general. Rookies aren't all the same to assume they should all have min mental scores is completely false. The other thing is player do get better from NFL coaching even if I give you they might not get faster but they do get football faster. Hell players get better from coach to coach. It is completely wrong headed to think a players physical play can not get better in the NFL. A former NFL player made a carreer of training speed. Carl Lewis 100m dash time kept getting lower into his mid 20s.

You are right no amount of training would make a difference bettwen us and NFL players. But the thought that speed can't be trained or improved has been a dead myth for decades. Just do a google search you still see the reality.

Are we going to lower physical stats after 5-6 season? Is the point of this realism or to actually have fun with a game we have been playing for decades? There is a point when realism takes the fun out of the game. The more realism you put in the more work it becomes with less reward. I think the heart of this idea is in the right place but I think it is completely wrong.

Players do get develop in the NFL and get better from coaching. The only way we have to show that is 8 attributes to limit ourselves to 3 is a disservice. Also it makes a complete mocker of what we are trying to simulate. NFL player put a lot of work in to there physical bodies to achieve what they achieve.

We should just focus on creating a spread of talent level and not trying to do things that the game isn't made to do. I think it is important to remember does the sp attribute have the same effect for OL as WR? When the game was written every one was giving stats up to 99.

As far as hands are you saying the catch machines don't improve hands? I mean guys get serious this fat guys on the couch view of sports. Yes there is a peak a person can reach through genetics but you imply that 20-22 year old kid has reach his physical peak is kinda foolish. Most athlete primes are in their mid 20s so about 4+ camps into PNFL.

[Dean-Atlanta]

I think SP should be 1-2 points from maxx as a rookie because a player who runs a 4.8 40 is not improving to 4.3 five seasons later, but he might improve to 4.7. All the other attributes, including IN and DI especially on some players, should have wider gaps between ACT and POT.

[Steve-Buffalo Bills]

Funny thing is I think NFL players LOSE speed, acceleration and agility as they get older.

Maybe the realistic thing to do is to eliminate potential in these three ratings once a player reaches the age when physicals are required.